Official Luthiers Forum!

OK....another question for discussion. I'm sure it's been mulled over a million times.....but
Even thought the idea isn't NEW, it seems a violin tie and a acoustic steel string is NOT very compatible. Is it because the bridge won't transfer the sound into the body as well if the strings only pass over the bridge?
It seems to work well for violins......why not many acoustic guitar designs. Seems a tie would eliminate some issues with the pulling stress on the bridge and with bridge rolling with age. Migt add to the life of a guitar.

I would think a floating bridge not be an option with a guitar....You'de never get that bridge right every time you restrung.

Save me before I try something I shouldn't.
Kent

_________________
Wood Creations by Kent A. Bailey
EXCELLENCE IN SCULPTURE, CARVING, LUTHIER, ARCHITECTURAL MILLWORK AND DESIGN

http://www.kabart.com

Hmmm, maybe I dont exactly understand what you're saying 'cause of my bad english BUT...

Isn't the case of ALL Archtop guitars?

_________________
Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

Ok Kent,

first off, me don't do the savior trip...however me philosophy and belief in life is "try it...you might likes it"

Now you have a choice...keep knocking off copies of copies of copies and there endless variations....or be prepaired to throw your experiments and research into the fireplace. Both are acceptable to me.

Moving on from there and back to the concepts you are examining.

The bridge, tail gut wire, tailpiece and the tail block of the violin family and how they work has been pretty well perfected over a several hundreds of years and reached that perfection few centuries back. In about another 2-3 months I will be posting a sample and drawings of a whole new design...however the basic concept won't be changed. And I will PM you when that goes down.

So because this bridge, and tail assembly has been perfected it was easy to adapt to the arch top guitar and the mandolin, which in their essence are just huge deformed weird violins with a few extra strings and frets. The design principles are still the same.

Ok now that that is in perspective...



I don't know why you would make such an assumption...although they are two different designs they however may still be interchanged...for what purpose me don't know as both have been perfected for a long time now.

The flat tops bridge basically stops the strings vibrations at its position on the top and transfers the vibrating energy into the top.

The bridge of an arch top stops the stings vibrations at its position on the top and transfers most
but not all of the vibrating stings energy into the top.

It is at this point we get into the difference between a $20 bottle and a $100 bottle of wine...some can tell the difference most can't ~ but what about $100 and a $150 or the $200 The differences between flat top and arch top

You see Kent, them after lengths of strings on the arch top model of building are also receiving the energy form the pluck strings and as such are also in resonance...and should be tuned. (Although most don't give a dingle berry about this fine tuning including a lot of violin setup pros)
This fine tuning is accomplished by adjusting that bit of "gut" wire that holds the tail piece in tension by running over the tail piece block and looping on to the end pin.

When the after lengths are "tuned" properly in a set up...many more things may be accomplished in
just what that instrument in capable of ie...

compliance of the strings
string tension
more partial harmonics may be realized
and
the possible elimination of wolf notes accomplished.

Now Kent, this ain't luthier 101 we talking here. And as this is only a simple reply to your questions,
me will not go any further into this topic of tuning the tail piece and the after lengths. I also doubt
that you will find any info on about it on any of the guitar forms. You will however, if you search deeply enough, find it in the luthierisem of advance violin family construction. Study that, then apply relativity to the string lengths and you will then have the maths and understanding on how to apply this to the rest of the arch top family of instruments. Put simply...although this is the Age of Instant Information and the WWW, there are still a few "secrets" that just arn't passed out untill the luthier
is truly worthy of knowing and and has the skills to apply. Takes about 10 years me hear tell, and although I am familiar with these concepts, me gotta long long ways before get to that skill set level

So don't any of you dudes reading this be posting anymore of that "knock the Padma off his ego trip stuff, its gettin kinda boring"




To paraphrase George Ivanavich Gurgieff " the guitar is a very complicated system, change one thing you gotta change everything else"

So Kent this has been done...but in the process of changing one thing and the next and the next...guess what...its no longer and flat top.... it will have evolved into an arch top.

But perhaps you might wanna go down this rout of building.




Well yes Kent, a floating bridge is an option on guitar although not a very common one... but it is pretty much a standard issue the arch top guitar.

So you grab a pair of side cutters, snap them strings on yer ax and restring right...yup....but not on a violin, violla, cello or upright you don't, oh no! BIG NOT! Nor do you do it on any member of the violin family of instruments... remember back at the beginning of this here babble..."archtops and mandos and the like" well they all distant members of the violin family. As such one string at a time. Or as you point out ...the bridge slips out of position and the intonation will have to be set. Ummm
Kent,but just in case nobody never told you...but thats one of the things a luthier does...sets the intonation on things that got strings.

The setting of intonation by a luthier is one of the most basic fundamental skills they must learn. Yes when positioning the bridge on a flat top you can do what nearly everybody does...measure, glue it down and live with it. But what did you as a luthier learn about "Setting" intonation...did you ear get any better at discerning pitch...or how to intonate for a player who wants high action vs low action, and what about that finger picken streach and scream your ears out at a gallilion watts of acid rock bent bending string metal picker...hmmm.

At this point please forgive me for getting really personal...but I feel compelled to bring this to your attention....it has to do with self limiting attitude or your BS* and here I re quote you.



So Kent, may I most humbly suggest if you wanna move forward as a luthier you loose the concept of self limitations Or just keep arguing for your limitations and well...then enjoy them.

Just something to think about.


Blessings
the
Padma


*BS: belief systems


.

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Hey Kent,

Take a look at gypsy jazz guitars. Solutions to your questions have been worked out. Different bracing, the mustaches for bridge placement, pliage to get enough pressure on the bridge, and a bunch of other things make them pretty interesting.

cheers

Well....ya ask and you shall receive. Yes I was aware of arch top designs and ties....just had a question mark about flat tops...
Interesting replies.

I always ask too many questions. I seem to know a little about a lot.

My light bulb still goes off...even at my age.
Kent

_________________
Wood Creations by Kent A. Bailey
EXCELLENCE IN SCULPTURE, CARVING, LUTHIER, ARCHITECTURAL MILLWORK AND DESIGN

http://www.kabart.com

Firstly, a very happy new year to you.
Now, there are some serious differences between a guitar and violin family instruments. I know it's stating the obvious, but in terms of how string energy is provided and used, they're very different. In the case of a violin, energy is constantly put into the strings by bowing. A tailgut absorbs some of the string energy because it's flexible, but is useful in a violin as it also helps to eliminate wolf notes by reducing coupling between the strings and the sound box. On a guitar you can't afford to lose that energy because the strings are plucked, which is why most arch-top guitars have solid tailpieces with solid mountings. Also, the strings need to couple well with the bridge and the the bridge with the top, and that needs a high bridge to provide the necessary pressure. It takes a reasonable amount of pressure just to hold the bridge in place. I tried building a standard flat-top with x-bracing and a floating bridge a few years ago. It worked ok, and is nice for Django-ish noodling, but it doesn't have as much power as I'd like. If I were to try it again, I'd go for a thinner top and probably a minimal lattice bracing pattern.
Cheers,
Bri

Hi, Kent. I'll chime in, too. I have seen this topic discussed elsewhere, and most builders were of the opinion that a guitar needs a certain amount of "break angle" of the strings over the bridge saddle to properly drive the top. The break angle is easy to achieve on an arch top, or on a "gypsy" flat top with a pliage (bend) behind the bridge. It's more difficult to achieve on a slightly domed or flat top. Have repeated that, I will also say that you might like the effect if you use a tailpiece and a floating bridge. I'm guessing your guitar would have a softer, quieter sound overall, but you might really like that. I have seen a number of guitars built as you propose. Give it a try and see if it works for you.

Oh...and, yes, once you get it stung and intonated, change one string at a time after that.
I don't believe it's absolutely necessary, but it's a whole lot easier.

Cheers,
Patrick

I built a travel guitar based on the Martin 0 size a couple of years age. To make it easy to break down
and re-assemble, I used an archtop style tailpiece and bridge. To simplify the intonation problems, I put
two small wood pins into the bridge that fit in matching holes in the top. My guitar teacher really liked the
tone- lots of bass and sustain for such a small body- I did build it deeper than the Martin model. The only
thing I would change on it is to increase the size of the X-brace in the lower half- the top has sunk in
slightly around the bridge. It's stable, but looks a bit funny.

_________________
Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

It works well on the violin because of the steep neck set and the carved top which give a great break angle over the bridge because of the neck set and the fact that the tailpiece is at a lower angle because of the top carving. It's harder to achieve a break angle on a flat top with such a low saddle as on a standard acoustic unless you set the neck angle more and add a slightly higher bridge and saddle. There are many flat tops out there that use the separate tail piece. The gypsy jazz guitars are one and old Stella's are another.